DUST Search - Putting passive bonuses where there aren't any. (Rough Draft)

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Ryme Intrinseca wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Ryme Intrinseca wrote:

Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry.

How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP?

And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players.

Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places).

Fair point. Well the actual bonuses he picked set aside, I think the idea of making every skill offer *some* kind of benefit is a good idea. I think we're all pretty jaded because we've already made the investment into other skills for reasons you listed. Even so let's look at it from a newer player's perspective. For an example, what does Caldari Medium Frame Level 2 earn you? The right to train level 3, and that's it. To a new player thats really frustrating because they grind for the SP and feel like they should get something for their effort, not just the right to grind more for the next level.

And even for veteran players, there are so many skills that don't require level 4 or 5 to be trained at all, so why are they there? I like the idea of them offering small bonuses that vets can optimize their character using their vast SP pool, but also offer newer players some immediate benefit with those low level skills that currently only unlock other skills.

So let me ask you this, if you had a respec (and I know that probably won't happen, but we're speaking conceptually there) would you support a system like this know you could put additional points into lower skills and perhaps not into the higher one if your particular fit/playstyle didnt need it, but you still had the option to optimize if you wanted?


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Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:30:00 - [1] - Quote Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry.
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:56:00 - [2] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 10% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places).
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:10:00 - [3] - Quote Then there is the separate issue that this basically amounts to 'fitting inflation'. All the work Rattati and others have done to balance fitting (e.g. on heavies in charlie) would go out the window as everyone would basically get a load of extra fitting optimization worth millions of SP for free. It was BORING when my sentinel could fit proto FG, proto SMG, proto AV nades, and proto everything else. This would be a step back in that direction. Fitting is a big part of the game, which you lose if you have so much CPU/PG that you don't need to make compromises.
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:37:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places). Fair point. Well the actual bonuses he picked set aside, I think the idea of making every skill offer some kind of benefit is a good idea. I think we're all pretty jaded because we've already made the investment into other skills for reasons you listed. Even so let's look at it from a newer player's perspective. For an example, what does Caldari Medium Frame Level 2 earn you? The right to train level 3, and that's it. To a new player thats really frustrating because they grind for the SP and feel like they should get something for their effort, not just the right to grind more for the next level. And even for veteran players, there are so many skills that don't require level 4 or 5 to be trained at all, so why are they there? I like the idea of them offering small bonuses that vets can optimize their character using their vast SP pool, but also offer newer players some immediate benefit with those low level skills that currently only unlock other skills. So let me ask you this, if you had a respec (and I know that probably won't happen, but we're speaking conceptually there) would you support a system like this know you could put additional points into lower skills and perhaps not into the higher one if your particular fit/playstyle didnt need it, but you still had the option to optimize if you wanted? Everything you say is very reasonable. And regarding your final question, I think something like this would be fine in the hypothetical scenario of a respec.